No text in Quanto Conficiamur Moerore or the Council of Trent says there are exceptions to the traditional interpretation of the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus

 

Lionel:

"So you have not been able to cite any text from Quanto Conficiamur Moerore or the Council of Trent which says there are exceptions to the traditional interpretation of the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus."

This was the inference made in the Letter of the Holy Office 1949 by Cardinal Francesco Marchetti Selvaggiani. This theory was a basis for the new Cushingism doctrine.You agree that there are no exceptions mentioned in these documents to the rigorist interpretation of extra ecclesiam nulla salus.

You initially said.'If the Church ever actually held the rigorist interpretation of extra ecclesiam nulla salus, then she threw it away long before 1949. Pope Pius XI rejected the rigorist interpretation in his encyclical Quuanto Conficiamur Moerore. Trent rejected it...'

There is NO TEXT which says that salvation in Heaven is visible to us on earth to be exceptions to the centuries old interpretation of extra ecclesiam nulla salus.

There is NO PRECEDENT for rejecting the Feeneyite version of the dogma.Not a single magisterial text before 1949 says there are exceptions to the traditional interpretation of the dogma. Not a single one!
So Marchetti's theory was just theory.It was a personal inference.

 

wineinthewater:

CCC 1257 tells us “God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments.” If water baptism is absolutely necessary, then God is in fact bound by the Sacraments.

Lionel:

Did Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, Prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith know of someone saved without the baptism of water ? How could he say that God was not limited to the Sacraments?

Was there any magisterial document before 1949 which said there are known exceptions to the dogma? None!

So Cardinal Ratzinger has used the Marchetti-Cushing premise here. It is irrational and contradicts the dogma, and other magisterial documents.

CCC 1257 also contradicts the Principle of Non Contradiction. It says God knows of no means to eternal beatitude other than the baptism of water and also says God is not limited to Sacraments. Every one defacto needs the baptism of water for salvation but some do not?!

The Catechism is contradictory at CCC 1257. It is also heretical. I am sorry I have to point it out.I wish it was done by someone else.

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wineinthewater:
But the catechism goes much farther than 1257:

1258 The Church has always held the firm conviction that those who suffer death for the sake of the faith without having received Baptism are baptized by their death for and with Christ. This Baptism of blood, like the desire for Baptism, brings about the fruits of Baptism without being a sacrament.

Lionel:

Once again : do we know of any case of someone saved with the baptism of desire or blood on April 11,2015?

No we do not. So the baptism of desire and blood are not exceptions or relevant to the dogma.

The dogma says all need the baptism of water and Catholic Faith for salvation. So in these hypothethical cases, we can assume that they received the baptism of water and then went to Heaven.

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wineinthewater:

1259 For catechumens who die before their Baptism, their explicit desire to receive it, together with repentance for their sins, and charity, assures them the salvation that they were not able to receive through the sacrament.

Lionel:

The same as above. We can choose to interpret it with the Marchetti-Cushing irrational premise and inference or with traditional Feeneyism, which says there are no exceptions and there cannot be an exception to the dogma for us human beings.

-Lionel Andrades

 

http://www.creativeminorityreport.com/2015/03/dont-blame-vatican-ii.html#comment-1957527138

 

We have two options. We can interpret the text either way. One way is traditional and the other is irrational http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2015/04/wineinthewater-lumen-gentium-14.html

 

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April 12,2015: Divine Mercy Sunday
A vivid presence suddenly swept over me and I was caught up in spirit befor the majesty of God. I saw how the Angels and the Saints of the Lord give glory to God. 'The glory of God is so great that I dare not try to describe it, because I would not be able to do so, and souls might think that what I have written is all there is.

All that has Come forth. from God returns to Him in the same way and gives Him perfect glory. (Diary 1604)

We have two options. We can interpret the text either way. One way is traditional and the other is irrational

 

 

wineinthewater:

Lumen Gentium 14 specifically says that Catechumens are inside the Church. If they had received water baptism, they would no longer be catechumens. But LG 15 goes farther: “Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience.” Since LG 14 says that there is no salvation outside the Church, these must be inside the Church despite their lack of baptism or even knowledge of the Church.

Lionel:

We can always interpret Vatican Council II with traditional Feeneyism or irrational Cushingism.

 

Feeneyism says every one needs to be a formal member of the Church, with faith and baptism, for salvation and there are no exceptions.
Cushingism says every one needs to enter the Church with faith and baptism for salvation but there are exceptions; there are known exceptions, so really every one does not need to enter the Church.

Lumen Gentium 14 specifically says that Catechumens are inside the Church. If they had received water baptism, they would no longer be catechumens.

Lionel:

So these cases are not known to us and so they do not contradict the strict interpretation of the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus.This is the Feeneyite interpretation.

And these cases are known to us personally in the present times and so they do contradict the traditional dogma on salvation which said all needed to be formal members of the Church, all needed 'faith and baptism' All do not need it ! We know of exceptions. This of course comes from the Marchetti-Cushing premise.

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But LG 15 goes farther: “Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience.”

Since LG 14 says that there is no salvation outside the Church, these must be inside the Church despite their lack of baptism or even knowledge of the Church.

Lionel:

So Lumen Gentium here is referring to cases known to us in the present times or Lumen Gentium assumes that we know that these cases are known only to God and so cannot be an exception to the dogma on salvation. Again we have two options, We can interpret the text either way. One way is traditional and the other is irrational.

It should be clear by now that the text is not a break with the past. It is the inference, we choose, that creates the hermeneutic of rupture or continuity.

For me, Vatican Council II affirms traditional exclusivist ecclesiology.It is Feeneyite.

-Lionel Andrades

 

http://www.creativeminorityreport.com/2015/03/dont-blame-vatican-ii.html#comment-1957527138

 

April 11, 2015

Ad Gentes 7 can be interpreted with Feeneyism or Cushingism

http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2015/04/ad-gentes-7-can-be-interpreted-with.html

 

There is an option Fr.John Zuhlsdorf  http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2015/04/there-is-option-frjohn-zuhlsdorf.html

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April 12,2015: Divine Mercy Sunday

O my God, how I pity those people who do not believe in eternal life; how I pray for them that a ray of mercy would envelop them too, and that God would clasp them to His fatherly bosom. (Diary 780)
I learned in the Heart of Jesus that in heaven itself there is a heaven to which not all, but only chosen souls, have access. Incomprehensible is the happiness in which the soul will be immersed. 0 my God, oh, that I could describe this, even in some little degree. Souls are penetrated by His divinity and pass from brightness to brightness, an unchangeable light, but never monotonous, always new though never changing. 0 Holy Trinity, make yourself known to souls! (Diary 592)

Ad Gentes 7 can be interpreted with Feeneyism or Cushingism

 

wineinthewater
Lionel said :“So you have not been able to cite any text from Quanto Conficiamur Moerore or the Council of Trent which says there are exceptions to the traditional interpretation of the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus.”

I have to be honest, I am beginning to wonder if you are being purposefully obtuse. There are two problems with this statement. First, I have never claimed that there are exceptions to EENS, nor does contemporary Church teaching claim that there is. Second, you have failed to show that your interpretation is the traditional interpretation.

“However, visible membership in the Church and water baptism are not necessary to be "inside the Church."

Lionel said:
The Magisterium says it is necessary (Vatican Council II (AG 7,LG 14), CCC 1257, 845,846, Redemptoris Missio 55, Dominus Iesus 20, Council of Trent, Syllabus of Errors, Catechism of Pope Pius X, Cantate Dominio Council of Florence 1441 etc).”

Let’s look at those:
Ad Gentes 7: “Therefore though God in ways known to Himself can lead those inculpably ignorant of the Gospel to find that faith without which it is impossible to please Him (Heb. 11:6).”
Lionel:
Feeneyism says every one needs to be a formal member of the Church, with faith and baptism, for salvation and there are no exceptions.
Cushingism says every one needs to enter the Church with faith and baptism for salvation but there are exceptions; there are known exceptions, so really every one does not need to enter the Church.

So if you are inferring that Ad Gentes 7 says: “Therefore though God in ways known to Himself can lead those inculpably ignorant of the Gospel to find that faith without which it is impossible to please Him (Heb. 11:6) and these persons ” , are known exceptions, so really every one does not need to enter the Church then this is Cushingism. It is irrational and heresy. It also contadicts the magisterial statements I have cited above.

-Lionel Andrades 

http://www.creativeminorityreport.com/2015/03/dont-blame-vatican-ii.html#comment-1957527138


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April 12,2015: Divine Mercy Sunday
After Holy communion, I was carried in spirit before throne of God .. There I saw the heavenly powers which incessantly praise God. Beyond the throne I saw a brightness inaccessible to creatures, and there only the Incarnate Word enters as,Mediator. (Diary 85)
Today I was in heaven in spirit, and I was it's inconceivable beauties and the happiness that awaits us after death. I saw how all creatures give ceaseless praise and glory to God. I saw how great is happiness in God, which spreads to all creatures, making them happy; and then all the glory and praise which springs from this happiness returns to its source; and they enter into the depths of God, contemplating the inner life of God, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, whom they will never comprehend or fathom.
This source of happiness is unchanging in it's essence, but is always new, gushing forth happiness for all creatures. Now I understand Saint Paul, who said, "Eye has not seen, nor has ear heard, or has it entered into the heart of man what God has prepared, for those who love him", (Diary 777). "
The sight of this great majesty of God, which I came to understand more profoundly and which is worshiped by the heavenly spirits according to their degree of grace and the hierarchies into which they are divided, did not cause my soul to be stricken with terror or fear; no, no, not at all! My. soul was filled with peace and love, and the more I came to know the greatness of God, the more joyful I became that He is as He is. And I rejoice immensely in His greatness and am delighted that I am so little because, since I am little, He carries me in His arms and holds. me close to His heart. (Diary 779)

St.Thomas Aquinas was a Feeneyite.

Feeneyite presense: This site Promotes Feeneyites: a TRUE Schizmatic Worthless for your faith, Worthless for your soul. Ignore!
Lack of proper Thomistic theology is the root of the error of the Feeneyites

Lionel:

St.Thomas Aquinas was a Feeneyite. He held the rigorist interpretation of the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus.
It was Cardinal Francesco Marchetti Selvaggiani and Cardinal Richard Cushing who were not Feeneyites. They inferred that there was known salvation outside the Church and these cases were exceptions to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus. For the first time in Church history they postulated that being saved in invincible ignorance and the baptism of desire were exceptions to the dogma.
1.They did not personally know of any person saved outside the Church.
2.No magisterial document before 1949 made this claim.
Mystici Corporis, Council of Trent etc only mention the possibility of a person being saved in invincible ignorance or the baptism of desire. That's all!. They do not postulate that these cases are known to us personally, or can be known to us, for them to be exceptions.Neither do they state that these cases are exceptions.
Marchetti and Cushing took the liberty of making 'the leap'. They inferred that people in Heaven are visble and known on earth to be exceptions to the dogma! The visible-dead theory of Marchetti!
Cushing also placed this irrationality in Vatican Council II (AG 7,LG 14 etc) to cause confusion.
They were supported by the secular media.So Catholics do not realize that Cushingism is heresy and Feeneyism is de fide.Cushingism rejects the dogma defined by three Church Councils, it changes the Nicene Creed's 'I believe in one baptism for the forgiveness of sins' to 'I believe in three or more baptisms, all without the baptism of water' and it interprets Vatican Council II with an irrational premise. So Vatican Council II contradicts itself and the dogma on exclusive salvation. The contradiction is there only because of the irrational Cushingite premise.Without the premise, Vatican Council II is Feeneyite.
The contemporary Magisterium is using Cushingism with a false premise,inference and conclusion.

-Lionel Andrades 

http://www.onepeterfive.com/bishop-williamson-ex-sspx-performs-more-illicit-consecrations/#comment-1957351915

 

 

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April 12,2015: Divine Mercy Sunday
Today I was led by an Angel to the chasms of hell. ~ It is a place of great torture; how awesomely large Iand extensive it is! The kinds of torture I saw:

the first torture that constitutes hell is the loss of God;

the second torture is perpetual remorse of conscIence;

the third is that one's condition will never change;

the fourth is the fire that will penetrate the soul without destroying it - a terrible suffering, since it is a purely spiritual fire, lit by God's anger;

the firth torture is continual darkness and a terrible suffocating smell, and, despite the darkness, the devils and the souls of the damned see each other and all the evil, both others and their own;

the sixth torture is the constant company of Satan;

the seventh torture is horrible despair, hatred of God, vile words, curses and blasphemies.

These are the tortures suffered by all the dammed together, but that is not the end of the sufferings. There arc special tortures destined for particular souls. These are the torments of the senses: Each soul undergoes terrible and indescribable sufferings, related to the manner in which it has sinned. There arc caverns and pits of torture where one form of agony differs from another. I would have died at the very sight of these tortures if the omnipotence of God had not supported me.
Let the sinner know that he will be tortured throughout all eternity, in those senses which he made use of to sin.
I am writing this at the command of God, so that no soul may find an excuse by saying there is no hell, or that nobody has ever been there, and so no one can say what it is like.
I, Sister Faustina, by the order of God, have visited the abysses of hell so that I might tell souls about it and testify to its existence. I cannot speak about it now; but I have received a command from God to leave it in writing. The devils were full of hatred for me, but they had to obey me at the command of God .
What I have written is but a pale shadow of the things I saw. But I noticed one thing: that most of the souls there are those who disbelieved that 11 there is a hell. When I came to, I could hardly recover from the fright. How terribly souls suffer there! Consequently, I pray even more fervently for the conversion of sinners. I incessantly plead God's mercy upon them. 0 my Jesus I would rather be in agony until the end of the world, amidst the greatest suffering, than offend You by the least of sin.. (Diary 741)